I think part of the whole problem has to do with the preliminary assumptions about men and women in tech. Those assumptions being: 1) men are interested in / like technology and 2) women do not like / have no interest in technology.

It is from these two assumptions that all advertising/marketing runs from (e.g. girls in bikinis with tech gadgets, Best Buy commercials focusing on selling TVs to men/fathers and washing machines to women/mothers).

I disagree with the assertion that "women do not like/have no interest in technology" with a venom and passion I can't possibly communicate in a comment to this article.

Women don't KNOW if they like technology or not -- mostly because as a society we have yet to break down the gender stereotypes enough that boys and girls are equally encouraged to explore math and science at a formative age.

Case in point: I was told in the second and fourth grade that it was "okay you're not good at math, girls don't need to know math." It took me until I was in my mid-20s to actually realize this was untrue, realize that I - personally - had the brain capacity to be good at mathematics and science; and, that -indeed- I WAS interested in technology.

(This is still going on today, I have a fourteen year old cousin who was told something remarkably similar when she wanted to sign up for a computer programming club at her junior high school.)

I also think that women -who are interested in tech and are qualified in their own specific, related fields- struggle to be taken seriously; as, technology is still considered a "male profession." I know many ladies who have gone to cons or events where they've been asked if they were in the marketing or public relations departments of their firms -- BECAUSE IT'S ASSUMED THAT ANY WOMAN AT A TECH EVENT IS A PR/MARKETING CHICK.

(Not to dog PR/Marketing chicks - I'm one myself.)

What does that say? It is pretty clear to me.

Great article, Cate - had I been there I might have bopped someone in the nose at some of those comments that were made - glad you were able to find the bliss. :)

I can't remember the exact details, but I'm fairly sure some research/experiments were done a few years back that involved men in focus groups saying 'oh no, I don't like having models on the front of my gadget mag, what kind of a sexist pigdog do you think I am?', and yet when tests were done with not having models on the front of gadget mags, they sold worse.

What this proves besides 'men are sexist pigdogs AND we lie about it' I'm not sure...

I also agree that women need to be more proactive and not be bitchy to other women in tech... that is one of our major failing points, we damn ourselves in a lot of ways.

Pigdogs... just... awesome. *steals from Stu*

And, yeah - I remember that.

You shouldn't be worrying your pretty little head about this stuff.

Go and ask your husband what to do.

(please don't hunt me down and make me beg like the idiot I pretend to be!)

Great piece Kate. But surely, given the miserable, macho, testosterone-fuelled nature of the business, the question is not why there are so few women in tech but why are there so many men?

I've just come back to the UK from Scandinavia where there's no such blindness. When discussing this at New Workplace, I was told by the tech director that he finds women in tech "a distraction in the workplace" and "bad for productivity."

Come and try telecoms software. Still male dominated but really I work with lovely men who have taught me heaps and treat me with great respect. It's a meritocracy where it's what's in your head that counts and not what's between your legs. I respect your view but please don't fall into the trap of making swathing statements: not all tech is the same, not all men are the same and not all women have the same experience. Instead of dismissing out of hand women who say they have had a different experience as being part of the problem, maybe you should try and find out why they feel that way - have they discovered something that you could use?

I agree that we need to make it our business to talk to girls about how great tech careers can be. Okay I'm the wrong side of 40 so we didn't even have a computer in my girl's school when I was doing my O Levels. I fell into tech you could say and have never managed to find my way out. But even now girls are steered away from tech careers by sexism in schools. I make it my business to talk to young girls at my kids' school about how great my job is, how it has helped me keep earning a great living while bringing up kids, how I got to see the world through it, and how women are really great at it. Most of them are still being told to be teachers or nurses in school. So if you really want change we need to change girl's expectations of their lives and open their horizons.

And also, women who can't get what they want out of tech always have the option of starting up their own firm and shifting the paradigm. If you're as good as you think you are then why work for firms that don't treat you right - go out and do it for yourself and the very best of luck to you.

Re: comment #2

My statement that 'women do not like / have no interest in technology" was an assumption that I think society has and NOT an assertion on my part.

I got my BS in computer Science in 1987 and have worked in tech ever since. In 1987, there were an equal number of girls and guys exiting my school with comp sci degrees. For real. I thought, wow, this is great, women and men are entering the field in equal numbers. I love it! I went to work for some big corporations where I encountered many women in tech. it was great. But over time, it seemed that there were fewer and fewer women entering the tech work force.

A few years ago, I attended a conference where someone was presenting a research study, the goal of which was to try to figure out why high school girls do not want to consider seeking degrees in Computer Science and technology. The numbers they presented were staggering, but did confirm my anecdotal experience. They noted that girls are avoiding Comp Sci and Tech in college. We lose them in high school or even earlier. It was terribly disappointing to hear that, because this has not always been the case. Numbers are DECLINING - they used to be much higher. So what changed?

When I entered the field computer science and software engineering, it was still relatively new - you couldn't even get a Comp Sci degree in the '70's, could you? The folks working for IBM and Honeywell and CDC back then didn't have Comp Sci or software engineering degrees - they had studied something else for the most part and came into the field by some other route. In the 80's, the formal academic choice was new, and plenty of women tried it. As a result, many women do have happy, successful, WELL-PAYING careers in tech today. We've proven that women can do the job and are damn good at it too. And when qualified women show up at the job interview, we do get hired to do the job.

The question is, why don't more women want satisfying, successful, high-paying careers in tech? Women are choosing to stay away in droves, before even trying it. Why?

Women who are in tech today have not done enough to educate the next generation about their choices and the fantastic tech career opportunities that are out there. I agree with all of the women who posted before me, that Women in Tech need to do more to educate our young girls about the awesome opportunities that wait for them. We need to support them and teach them the skills they need to enable them to cope in an environment that may not be a diverse now as it will be in the future. (I'm an optimist...) We need to be proud, vocal role models, and show them that we can do the job without becoming the stereo-type. I, personally, do not fit the geek stereotype in any way. I'm a married, cross-country/hockey/skiing/wrestling/soccer/baseball-mom, mother of two. I look nice in a dress and I, while fluent in geek-speak, am also able to communicate with others without using it. I shower regularly. I may dream in code, but I still manage to fit into society. I'm "normal". When people ask me what I do for a living, I love being able to tell them, proudly, "I'm a computer geek!" First, they think I'm joking, because I don't fit the stereo-type. Then, when I give them my actual job title and they realize I'm serious, the next reaction is always a little bit of shock and awe, followed by a healthy dose of admiration. (Wow, you can be normal AND smart?) Talk about Bliss! It's great. Who doesn't want to be admired for their brains? and when my kids are asked what their mom does, their answer is "she's a computer genius!" More Bliss. This is the message that needs to be getting out there to our high school and middle school girls. And it's the real Women in Tech who need to share the message.

G Silva - I wasn't saying that it was an assertion on your part, it's a general assertion I've heard in the tech community over the years. Sorry to be unclear.

Cheers,
Kate

I reject the base assertion that there is a substantive difference between men and women that makes one better or more desirable in tech than the other. We are not making cyberbabies; the shape and function of our genitalia are completely irrelevant. Whether there is a true biological reason that women tend to work in the creative and social roles in a higher proportion than in the scientific and engineering roles in IT remains to be seen, but I personally believe it is a problem more of culture than discrimination or biology.

What we need in tech are people who are passionate about technology, intelligent, and highly creative. To the extent that women with these attributes in the present generation did not receive enough exposure to technology as children and young adults to pursue it as a career, it is a shame. The stereotypical male geek of our generation probably has many memories he can dredge up of times and reasons why girls refused to play with video games or gadgets with him; I am willing to bet little of that had to do with him telling the girl she was unwelcome and unfit to participate. In other words, it had more to do with the culture among young girls than among young boys. I think this is different from other areas, such as sports or leadership, where it is a rejection problem from the boy's side. Fortunately I think this barrier is coming down in the next generation. Statistics show that the gap between girls and boys who play video games, use the web and other kinds of info-technology, etc. is closing to near non-existence. It's much better for instance than similar statistics on professional sports or many other traditionally male-dominated activities.

The dip that G Silva mentions may have a lot to do with how cultural perceptions of geeks regardless of sex - that we are all fat, pimply, socially retarded mouthbreathers - is more punishing to women than it is to men because superficial attitudes about appearance and social performance are programmed more strongly in young women. The fact that these stereotypes don't apply is beside the point; I'm not fat or pimply either, nor are the majority of my colleagues, nor my geeky wife, nor were my geeky friends as a child.

You mentioned something along the lines of "do we really think a man knows what a woman wants better than a woman?" Let's rephrase that question. Do we really think that a man educated in female-targeted marketing is inferior to a woman with no specific education? How about a man and a woman with functionally identical education? Once again, is the shape of the genitalia going to trump years of study and training? I sincerely doubt that. It is almost as fallacious as assuming that a blond person knows what all blondes want more than any brunette, or that a person born in California knows what all Californians want better than any New Yorker. If we had changed the statement around and asserted instead that it's impossible for a woman to be as successful at marketing to men because she lacks a penis you'd probably be grossly insulted (and rightly so). This kind of assumption does more harm than good; as an advocate for women in tech I would hope you omit it and stick to the substantive comments you made elsewhere in the article.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

Oh, regarding statistics, if you missed it ALA just did a big survey on the web development crowd that is really informative when it comes to pay gaps and gender distribution. It doesn't make any causal assertions, just some great data. Check the results out here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/findingsfromthewebdesignsurvey2008

I've always advocated a more representative industry. I come from the world of broadcasting where women are rarer than you'd think because all the women you generally see are the "creatives" and not the "engineers".

But when I was teaching I tried to help and will continue to advocate women in technology because I think everyone has their part to play in the world.

A HUGE thank you to everyone for all of their comments, and for contributing to the discussion. Will try to reply to you all in the morning!

I would agree that, in general, society does not encourage women to pursue math & science (except social science). But, there are good reasons for women not to be in the trenches coding, at least if they plan on having a family. First, lets get this out of the way: in an overwhelming majority of families, the women does most/all of the housework/childrearing. That being said a number of things about high tech can make the best paid careers unavailable to women.
1) crunch time. Who's gonna pick up the kids from school when your stuck at the office 15 hours a day?
2) rapidly changing technology. Many women take a few years off or work part time till the kids can go off to school. During that time, many of the technologies they know are rapidly becoming obsolete, and they are not accumulating "years of experience" to put on their resumes. So, when they go back to working, they have to spend time learning lots of new stuff. Plus, they are at a disadvantage in hiring, because many employers seem to want people who have been working with new technology since it was in beta testing ("must have 5 years of Sharepoint 2007 experience")
3) Startups. See crunch time x 2.
4) Nerds. No offense to you nerds, but I'm a guy and I wouldn't want to work with many of you. I can only imagine what its like for women packed into a cubicle-matrix with a ton of nerds. Yes, there are nerdy girls, but they tend to have better hygene and at least a modicum of social skills.

It's an interesting (and important) debate. It seems pretty firmly established that there are fewer women in IT - see Computer Weekly's survey (http://tr.im/jAR9) as well as the figures mentioned in Cate's post. It also seems evident that there are barriers and blockages to women who want to get into IT, getting into it, and I think more needs to be done to find out a) what these barriers are and b) how they can be broken down.

Cate, you mentioned education and perception - are there any others? Identifying these problems would be a good next step. As you say, getting people to acknowledge that there is an issue is great, so I think that men should be involved in these seminars as well; if you're looking at why there is a barrier to entry into certain groups / professions, then you need to know the characteristics of this group.

It's quite an emotive issue, and it's great to get fired up about it, but I do think that people also need to be reasonable about it.

Lastly, Evan - your last point is a bit much. Starting a sentence by saying 'no offense' does not mitigate the impact of saying 'I wouldn't want to work with you'. We can't choose who we work with - our bosses do. And branding people as 'nerds', which is derogatory, isn't helping.

"There's a job at a new start-up that you'd be prefect for, but why bother. Do you really want to work in an office of all men?"

And therein lies the core of the problem. I know enough about out-group dynamics to understand why women feel this way but men don't (I've met very few men who would be bothered working in an all-female office), so I'm not criticizing here.

But creating a situation where women don't have concerns about working in a group of all men should be a key goal.

I agree that the women who want to be in tech are there; and for the most part are treated equally by individuals. However, the industry as a whole doesn't treat women equally: witness the "booth babes" at every tech conference.

If we want the industry to change and grow, we need to make sure that more women want to be in tech by, e.g. not discouraging girls who show an interest in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. I'm not saying we should try to convince girls and women who have no interest, I'm only saying that we should be careful not to discourage them (especially young girls: so much career interest starts early in life) when they do show interest.

If you don't think it happens, spend a little time watching parents in a toy store. Girls who pick up the toy computers, or legos, or other "techie"-type toys are routinely told "you don't want that, it's for BOYS."

@Evan:

A couple of points. First, all your chatter about child-bearing getting in the way of a career is sexist bullshit that was used since the 50's to argue that women shouldn't work at all. It stunk then and doesn't smell any better now.

Male techs with kids often take breaks or leave work early to pick up their kids from daycare or school. Yeah, sometimes they go back to the office or work from home, but women can do that too you know. Those male techs who can't get away from work rely on their spouses, friends, and other family to help out. What makes you think women can't do the same? Or shouldn't their husbands/boyfriends be equally on the hook to help with child care?

Second, your cracks about personal hygiene, social skills, and "nerds" make it pretty clear that your experience with technical folks is narrow indeed. Maybe you notice the "nerds" more than the geeks down the hall who have a better chance at a date than you...

@Evan - I take issue with your assertion that there are "good reasons for women not to be in the trenches coding, at least if they plan on having a family. " The parenting argument simply doesn't hold up. In today's society, there are many men who are equally involved in parenting or who are single parents. They still have satisfying tech careers, as do women with children. I have been in tech for over 20 years, and during the last 15 of them, I have also been raising my children. I know all about crunch time - I've done my share of pulling all-nighters both at the office and working from home. And start-ups? I've done two of those. I have not sacrificed career for children or children for career. Both career and children are doing quite well, thank you. As noted in an earlier post, we all just have to be creative and rely on supportive family and friends at times. This 'argument' is simply a distraction. Let's get back to the real issues - what turns girls off about tech and how can we address that?

I found this post after coming home from one of the Paypal developer days today. In a room of 100 attendees, there were five women. Every time I bent down to pick something up I was acutely aware of the 'men' around me trying to look down my top.
I make a living out of this stuff, and yet I felt so intimidated I had to leave the conference early. The chances of me ever attending a second tech event are very, very small indeed.